Preacher Supports Gay Rights
70Preacher Supports Gay Rights?
How can a preacher of God and a staunch advocate for living by the principles of The Bible support the rights of homosexuals? While some might jump for joy at the notion, most assuredly certain others would argue the impossibility of such a man being God’s preacher at all. Nevertheless while this writer has nothing to prove either way, I believe this topic deserves the utmost attention from both the Church and secular world.
I didn’t always believe what I believe now. But over the years as I examined God's nature, His position on certain key issues according to The Bible and the rules of government in this society, I came to the conclusion that homosexuals have rights just like anybody else and that their desire to be who they are and to marry one another is absolutely no threat to God's institution of marriage.
It is evident that some in the Church have not fully considered the elementary school concept of God-given autonomy which is the freedom God gives each human being to choose or reject Him and His commands. Other key concepts that factor in are the separation between Church and State, the difference between spiritual and secular marriage, as well as the difference between a theocratic society and a democratic society.
Does God Make Homosexuals Be Homosexuals?
Just because a homosexual says God made him or her that way does not necessarily make it so. Regardless of subjective human beliefs, according to scripture God does not make people commit or practice acts which He considers to be an abomination.
The Reader’s Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary (copyright 1975) defines an abomination as “anything that excites disgust, hatred, or loathing; any detestable act or practice.” In the Old Testament, God says to men in Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination.”
Since the first woman came from a man, the same command applies to women as well and in the New Testament, the apostle Paul points out the fact that the wrath of God is revealed against all such ungodliness and those who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
Under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, Paul specifically discusses the subject of homosexual origins (Romans 1:18-27) as being due to the lust of one’s own heart, as certain individuals refused to give God glory and thanks, nor would they retain the knowledge of God.
Serenity Prayer
Gay Is NOT The New Black
The argument by homosexuals or gays that God made them that way has led to a popular media topic in recent months, as protestors in gay rallies and demonstrations have been seen holding large signs: "Gay Is The New Black."
In this argument, in essence homosexuals are saying that the Most Intelligent And Wise God created a certain segment of human beings to practice the very thing that He hates; something that He is known to destroy entire cities for (Sodom, Gomorrah, & Pompeii to name a few). Not only is this view anti-biblical and completely illogical, it is null and void.
As just previously discussed above, The Bible clearly states that homosexuals make the autonomous choice to be such, thus completely dispelling the myth “Gay Is The New Black.”
It's highly important to recognize and accept the difference between the things we can change and the things we can't change according to God's wisdom and not our own.
While there are some parallels and analogies to the homosexual’s plight of rights being denied in similar fashion to that of African-Americans in this country, some would adamantly argue that being Black is not a choice the way being homosexual is, that this country’s brutal history of slavery, Jim Crowism and segregation towards Blacks must never be slighted or minimized by such frail comparisons, and that "Gay is NOT nor ever could be the new Black."
But How Can A Preacher Condone Such A Terrible Sin?
Just because I believe infringing upon people’s freedom to choose is wrong, this does not make me an advocate for sin! God hates sin, He loves the sinner, He teaches His Church to do the same, and this is what I teach. This is not an issue of supporting or condoning sin. This is all about upholding people’s autonomy in a free democratic society.
Just because one chooses to become a Christian, obey God, live their life for Him and reject the practice of homosexuality, this does not permit the Church to impose on the autonomous rights of homosexuals by legislating morality on them in a free democratic society. The only place to exercise such governmental rule is in a theocratic state, not a democracy like these United States. This leads us to the discussion of the separation of Church and State.
In verses 1-2 of Leviticus 18, God instructs Moses to deliver a message to His people, and to sign the message: “I am the LORD your God.”
In verses 3-5, God begins by saying that His people are not to engage in certain sexual practices that other people do, as the land of Egypt which they had just been delivered from was involved in homosexuality, and the land of Canaan where they were headed was too.
God was letting it be known in no uncertain terms that His people must stay focused by walking in His ordinances and to do His judgments no matter what others choose to do.
The lesson here is while others are doing these things, this is not tolerable behavior, especially for God’s people. Nowhere in this particular passage do we find God imposing these standards on the heathen nations; only amongst His people. This is important for those of us in the Church to note.
While God's laws apply to all humans and He judges all sin, He applies judgment as He sees fit. We don't get to pick and choose how God's moral laws should be applied towards people who don’t believe His Word. God allows it to rain on the just as well as the unjust according to His own desire, and it's nobody's job to change somebody else.
Separation of Church And State
Despite what some may believe and no matter what the United States Constitution says about it, God Himself in The Bible declares a separation between Church and State, more specifically between the Church and entire world: “Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God. And ye shall keep my statutes and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you” (Leviticus 20:7-8).
To ‘sanctify’ in this essence means to be distinctly set apart, as God is the One who sets His people apart from the world for His own purposes. Churches in our country have the complete right to be autonomous, to establish by-laws according to biblical precepts and to discipline and/or excommunicate members who refuse to repent from sinful acts in a theocratic format ONLY within the confines of their establishments.
Even though this country was founded by Christian forefathers, the United States of America is not a God-governed theocracy like ancient Israel was, but rather is a democratic society in which people are free to choose their religions, occupations, lifestyles, sexual orientations, etc.
While this country has attempted to mirror most of God’s laws in the Constitution, by virtue that this country declared independence from British rule, fought for its own autonomous rights and established a free democratic society, the autonomous rights of all American citizens must be guaranteed in this country. One’s freedom to choose is what the ‘gay rights’ issue is all about.
God Is A Gentleman
Another point that most right wing conservative Christians as well as some left wingers fail to miss is that God Himself does not impose on the autonomous rights of mankind.
According to The Bible, God definitely chastens those who are called by His name: those who believe in Him, live for Him and yet who also willingly sin against Him. And likewise God punishes blatant sinners who completely disregard Him and His commands.
As mentioned earlier in ancient times God destroyed entire cities for engaging in homosexuality. In more recent times, people still want to debate me as to whether it was God who sent the four hurricanes to southern Louisiana and south eastern Texas within a 3 year period: two hurricanes back to back about 1 month apart (Katrina & Rita) in late summer 2005, and two more hurricanes (Ike & Gustav) back to back just 10 days apart during the exact same period in 2008.
Considering that the timing of those devastating storms came right when the annual gay and lesbian parades in New Orleans were about to take place, and considering that God is known to send storms after folks in the Bible (i.e. Jonah) nobody can convince me it was not God who sent those four hurricanes to Louisiana. God has a terrible side that even Believers don’t want to think about.
And yet God still gives people the freedom to choose which way they want to live. Because of His unconditional love for mankind, God is still infinitely patient with sinful man in ways that we don’t even know about, and He has elaborately planned salvation for those who would turn from sin and accept the sacrifice of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ as a substitute for their sin. (See http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Way-Of-Salvation)
God lavishly blesses those who choose to live for Him, and He outlines those blessings in The Bible so that people can know what good things to expect from Him. God also outlines the consequences of rejecting Him, and He issues punishments according to His own Word, otherwise He would not be God. But never does He make any of us (believers or unbelievers) choose Him or obey Him. God is a gentleman, who talks softly but carries a big stick!
The Control-Freak Christian
Not only is it unbiblical to impose on the autonomous rights of homosexuals, but it is unconstitutional as well. But certain control-freak ‘Christians’ don’t have this understanding and go way out of their way to try and make people who have obviously chosen to live by the world’s system obey God.
This is the same control-freak mentality that was exercised by conservative Christians in the South who believed in taking people’s autonomy away by legally instituting slavery.
Many Blacks or African-Americans in this country are particularly sensitive to recognizing this superiority complex when it raises its ugly head. For this reason, while most Blacks don’t condone homosexual behavior or lifestyles in any way shape or form in the Church, we are often times adamantly opposed to the legislation of morality in society as it imposes upon a free person’s autonomy.
Christians should never try to make somebody obey God when God Himself doesn’t. When Jesus walked this earth as God in human form some 2,000 years ago, with all the miracle-making power He had, and with all the authority Jesus exercised over the devil and his demons, not once do we find anywhere in scripture where Jesus sought to legislate morality or impose His morality on others to make them choose or obey God.
The Anti-Christ Mission of Christianity
As sinful as the Roman Empire was in that day in time, The Bible does not indicate where Jesus pushed for the legislation of morality in that world-governed country or in Israel 2,000 years ago. I believe that today’s Church has no business doing so either.
Jesus did say however, “If you love me keep my commandments.” Can not the Church see that God doesn’t want anybody to obey Him because they were forced to do so? God did not make us to be robots! God considers our obedience as an act of love towards Him, and He seeks our love in response to the great love He has shown us.
Why then are Christians on the right trying to make people obey God? Just because we believe something is right doesn’t give us permission to make people believe the same way we do through the law. This position is contrary to the Word of God and causes much more harm than good. Nobody wants the bible rammed down their throats! This is the damage that bible-thumpers do.
Rather than presenting God as One who loves sinners, who has their best interest at heart, and lovingly persuading sinners to consider the error of their ways, certain radical and zealous Christians who believe in legislating morality go to the extent of staging formal and public protests against homosexuals, slamming homosexuals in the media, and according to Satan’s design instead of gently persuading people to believe in God they push folk that much farther away from God!
Nobody wants to be made to do anything. And even if we could, God certainly doesn’t want people worshipping, obeying or loving Him because they were forced to. These well-meaning yet totally ignorant Christians have no concept about the trouble they are about to bring upon the Church if they keep attempting to legislate morality through the state and/or federal law.
This is the Pandora’s Box that nobody in the Church wants: If the Church continues to attempt legislating morality, then the door swings wide open for immorality to be legislated against the Church! It is truly foolish for Christians to allow themselves to be used by the devil this way.
Man’s Law vs. God’s Law
Even though human beings typically ignore God’s laws and hold man-made laws up on a pedestal, God’s people know that the laws of the land (human law) can never supersede or rise to the standard of God’s spiritual laws.
The Church also knows if man’s law ever opposes God’s law, it’s God’s law that must be obeyed at all costs. For Christians are not to fear the one who can kill this body, but to fear The One who can destroy both body and soul in hell (Matthew 10:28).
For the Christian, there is no question that the practice of homosexuality is an unacceptable behavior that will not be tolerated by God. Leviticus 20:13 says “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.”
So why in the world would a preacher of God say that homosexuals should be able to engage in homosexuality and even marry if they so choose? Fact is it’s their God-given right to do as they please whether they know about the resulting consequences according to God’s Word or not.
Christians are often labeled homophobic haters because of the judgmental or condemning way they come off towards gays. While their intentions may be good, this legal-minded method of delivery is quite threatening, offensive, abusive and downright counterproductive.
It’s this same bad attitude which sets Christians up to be labeled as hypocrites. This is in reference to the Christian who hasn’t fully grasped the concept of unconditional love, these who don’t yet know how to properly develop and cultivate loving relationships with people who they wrongly perceive to be the enemy, and patiently wait for God to open the door for an evangelism opportunity.
Satan and his kingdom of demons is the enemy. Homosexuals are NOT the enemy and never should be treated as such. The Church owes this to humanity: “Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law” (Romans 13:8).
It’s not just the preacher’s responsibility, but every Christian’s responsibility to find a loving way to warn homosexuals and to gently persuade those within the Christian’s sphere of influence to consider what God’s Word says no matter what human laws may or may not be at a given moment.
Who Defines Marriage Anyway?
The root to the Church’s problem is that we hold secular marriage as sacred: higher than God's spiritual covenant marriage. There are those of us in the Church who believe that secular marriage supersedes spiritual marriage! We SAY we understand that God’s law is higher than man’s law, but do we really? Some of us are not even aware of such a thing as spiritual marriage.
In other words, we believe that just because two people stand and say vows before a preacher or justice of the peace before witnesses and get a marriage license from the State, we believe that makes those two people “married” without considering if God indeed joined them together.
Secular marriage has it's place, but this marriage is merely contractual and easily dissolved through a thing called annulment or divorce, also through the State. What about when Blacks were considered to be property and were not legally allowed to marry because they were slaves?
Slave preachers knew something through the Word of God way back then that many of us still have yet to learn. It doesn’t take a license from the State for God to consider two people to be married (i.e. Adam & Eve)! Those of us in the Church should remember and know that only God institutes a true spiritual covenant marriage.
We know from the Word of God “what God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” The slave preacher who would perform ceremonial weddings by having the couple ‘jump the broom’ understood that no matter what human laws existed, God’s covenant marriage was unbreakable and deemed valid by God even if not by the White slave master or society.
Jesus told the woman at the well that the husband she was with was not her own…
Because of the fact that God’s spiritual realm always supersedes our physical realm, we need to face the fact that some people who got married in the secular realm; they got a license by the State and yet God never put them together. And likewise there are people who God joined together, they got a secular marriage license, had problems and got a legal divorce, and yet God still considers them to be married.
If anybody in the Church understands that it’s God who joins a man and a woman together, and that God would not violate His own standards or law by joining a man and a man or a woman and a woman to be married, then the Church ought to have no problem concluding that just because two people ‘get married’ under man’s law, whether they be homosexuals or not, that doesn’t mean God put them together!
In the world, Satan (who’s name means ‘adversary’) is clearly defined by the Bible as the little ‘g’ god of this world (II Corinthians 4:4), who blinds the minds of those who don’t believe in Jesus. And unless God Himself opens their eyes to the truth, there’s no way the Church can make any unbeliever see what we see.
Even if homosexuals ‘marry’ under man’s law, we in the Church must understand that they will NEVER be truly married according to God’s standards.
If they choose to live under the virtual reality delusion that ‘God’ made them that way and that it’s ‘God’ who is joining them together in ‘Holy Matrimony’, this is nothing but further evidence that they are ignoring God's Word which is written in plain English. And that’s their business!
What they do in the world is their business and they have a right to their version of reality. What we do in the Church is our business and it's ours to know what's real and what's not based on the Word of God.
We in the Church have an obligation to be fruitful and to multiply in ways that homosexuals can't: to reproduce Godly seed by teaching our children to live for Him, and to make them aware of what’s going on with unbelievers in the physical realm of this world, as well as in God’s unseen spiritual realm.
Those of us in the Church need to know for ourselves and teach our children that the spiritual realm is more real and always supersedes and is a precursor to the physical realm, and not the other way around.
Even though the Church is greatly outnumbered by unbelievers in the world, due to the fact that God’s Church and the State are separate, whatever homosexuals do in the world, it is absolutely no threat to what we do as Christians.
Whatever homosexuals do in this secular physical realm, Christians have to recognize that according to the Bible the homosexual version of marriage is non-existent in God's spiritual realm!
Are Christians On The Right Battlefield?
We are the ones who know that God’s thoughts and God’s ways are much higher than human thoughts and human ways. We are the ones who know that God hates sin, but that He loves the sinner to the point where He would send His Son to die for them in order that He might still have a loving relationship with them.
We are the ones who know that while God’s love for the sinner is unconditional, that God’s justice still demands that sin be punished. We are the ones who know that either a person’s sins will be paid for by he or she spending an eternity in hell, or that the sacrifice of Jesus’ shed blood will pay for their sins if they so choose to live for God through Jesus Christ.
It’s been said that you can draw more flies with honey than with vinegar, right?
We are the ones who know that Jesus is on His way back sooner than most people think. We also know that God’s unconditional love covers a multitude of sins, and that it’s not our responsibility to condemn or publicly expose the sinful acts of others.
Therefore, our emphasis as Christians must be to generate genuine and friendly relationships with those whom God assigns us to evangelize and witness to, be they homosexual or anybody else. We are to lovingly persuade folk to turn from their ways that displease God, and to turn towards Jesus who can take their ungodly desires away and give them a clean heart by the power of His shed blood.
It was the religious ones who criticized Jesus for associating with and standing up for sinners. It was the religious leaders who grew more and more angry with Him as he told those who caught the woman in adultery “ye without sin cast the first stone.”
Instead of ramming The Bible down the throats of homosexuals or any other person deemed as ‘less than’ and instead of beating the proverbial dead horse by seeking to strip their God-given autonomous rights, the Church ought not set itself up to be judged by the world as hypocrites.
The Church will be judged by God however as to how it represents or misrepresents Jesus in the earth. We in the Church should do our best to walk as Jesus walked. Evangelizing and helping sinners the way that Jesus did requires getting off one’s high horse, walking where other sinners walk, sitting where sinners sit, being loving and humble enough to be approached by sinners who are seeking God, and truly having the sinner’s best interest at heart.
This is the battlefield that Satan seeks to distract the Church from.
Secular Law Is No Tool For Evangelizing!
While the Church in no way can condone homosexuality and despite any personal feelings of disgust some might feel, the Church is obligated to look at our own sinful habits that we must conquer through the power that God makes available to us (a full time job in and of itself).
And with that same power from God we are to love homosexuals or any other unbeliever unconditionally without favoritism, and to treat them with the proper dignity and respect that they deserve.
Unfortunately, some Christians are too yellow (scared) to evangelize God’s way! That’s why I believe some go to such great lengths to push for secular laws to be enacted in order to make people obey God, rather than dealing with real people face to face, one on one the way Jesus did.
One downside of legislating morality through human law is that human law changes to and fro from day to day and from State to State according to the whims of society. Have we not learned that Prohibition of the 1930’s already proved that legislating morality is useless?
Legislating morality through secular law is no substitute for evangelizing people the way Jesus told us to, and it only opens the door for immorality to be legislated against the Church.
In Conclusion
If the Church is so concerned about influencing unbelievers to choose God and live right, the only thing the Church needs in this regard is to exercise the humble gift of loving persuasion in a grass roots style movement: one-on-one, one encounter at a time by Christians that are bold enough to help people see the error and devastating consequences of their ways in a kind and gentle manner without judging anybody.
The Church must be a credible witness to all about the multitude of blessings that Our Loving God has in store for the surrender of one’s life to Him.
Since God Himself does not force anybody to obey Him or choose His way of life, rather than trying to remove the splinter from somebody else’s eye when we have a log in our own, I believe it’s the Christian’s responsibility to put their energies towards changing one’s own self rather than trying to change others, to be an advocate for the autonomous rights of all human beings including homosexuals, while at the same time, seeking the salvation of our fellow men and women God’s Way: through the Love of God.
I believe homosexuals should be able to choose their own path like anybody else, and I especially believe in their right to receive the Love of God, to repent, to be saved and to live for God!
Be Blessed!
Part 2 of this article can be found here: http://hubpages.com/hub/State-Run-Church
Please be advised that the advertisements which cater to homosexuals in this hub have not been endorsed by TheFount.
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yes2truth,
While this statement is not related to the topic at hand, I appreciate your comment and invite you to quote scriptures that are specific to your point.
Thanks
Hello,
John 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (brackets mine)
This verse is very important for one or two reasons 1) mainstream Christianity ignores it completely. 2) What it doesn't say is as important as what it does say i.e. what if The Father is not calling everyone now in this age? 3) We know point 2 to be true due to the fact that billions of people die in their sins.
Matt 13:10-16 (KJV) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
His message was only for the benefit of a few, for only the Learners (erroneously called disciples) could understand along with the Pharisees and Scribes - the Men of Religion!! Religion is an evil spirit, hence the spirit called Legion or nowadays called Re-Legion.
Matt 7:13-14 (KJV) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction (spiritual ruin), and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Brackets mine)
For those spiritually ruined read 98% of mainstream Christians.
Many are called, few are chosen.
Only a few constitute The Church of God - The True Church.
I will leave it here and deal with the Great White Throne Tribunal next time if we are in agreement on the above.
Yes2truth,
In paragraph 2 above, in point #2 you have proposed an interesting question. I don't necessarily equate point #3 being proof of point #2, but overall so far, we seem to be in agreement.
Thanks
Hello again,
If point three doesn't prove point two, when are all those who have died in their sins going to be saved? I say this because they definitely have died in their sins and The Father hasn't called them in this life or in this age.
This goes for my sons, (still alive) my parents, (now deceased), and my extended family non of whom to my knowledge have been saved.
1 Tim 2:4-6 (KJV) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of The Truth (the Lord Jesus Christ). 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (Brackets mine)
Yes2truth,
In point #2 of your second comment, you asked the question "what if The Father is not calling everyone now in this age?" and you pointed out that there are billions who die in their sins.
I agree with you on the fact that billions die in their sins and based on the scripture you've quoted (Matt. 7:14 ..."few there be that find it") relatively few will ever become saved.
The fact that billions die in their sins because they rejected Christ in this life is a very sad but simple truth.
I'm not saying that those who die in their sins won't get another chance, but no where in THAT particular passage of scripture you quoted does it indicate that the ones who were lost would get another chance.
That's why I said your point #3 does not prove your point #2.
I'm still waiting for you to scripturally demonstrate the original points you made about the unsaved ones who reject Christ in this life:
"The problem re lost and unsaved homosexuals and the counterfeit church is this false idea they have that everyone must get saved in this life or in this age or else it's hell fire and eternal punishment. None of which is true."
"All this too, when all the while they will have their chance for repentance and salvation in the second resurrection after the Great White Throne tribunal."
"they will have their chance for repentance and salvation in the second resurrection after the Great White Throne tribunal."
I'm waiting for you to demonstrate these points by way of scripture.
Thanks
Hello,
"The fact that billions die in their sins because they rejected Christ in this life is a very sad but simple truth."
"I'm not saying that those who die in their sins won't get another chance"
Would you mind explaining how these people have 'rejected' Christ when 1) The Father has not called them to His Son. Furthermore, in order for real rejection to take place in any relationship one party knowing the other must be in effect and 2) Where do the Holy Scriptures describe first and second chances - first and second resurrections yes, and finally 3) Does The Father leave anything to chance?
Here from the Holy Scriptures is an example of real or True rejection:
John 6:65-66 (KJV) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
It would also seem that you have not tied up Matthew 10:13-16 with John 6:44. Which in effect proves what I am saying with regards my earlier points two and three.
Excuse me,
First, you respond to my article here about homosexuals having autonomous rights with a totally unrelated comment about the unsaved getting a second chance after this life.
Then, instead of backing those statements up with scripture, you're trying to take me around in circles by asking me ridiculous and unrelated questions.
Apparently, you have big problems with the issues of autonomy and predestination.
yes2truth, you have proven nothing, and it's obvious that you only wish to argue.
If you're not going to present scriptures that buttress your original statements about the unsaved getting a second chance after this life, then let it go.
thefount, yes2truth is of the bibletruths.com (L. Ray Smith) doctrine, which I refute in several of my hubs. They believe that even Satan and his fallen angels, as well as ALL unbelievers who have died in their sins will be purified in the spiritual Lake of Fire, that there is no eternal hell for anyone. It's a lie from the pit of hell, and I am thankful to see your responses, for they twist the Bible and cannot indeed prove their false doctrines by it. Praise God for you!
Regarding your topic here, I am greatly blessed to release myself of the burden, in the greater sense of feeling I should be held accountable by God for the choices people make, even yes2truth and their group of "believers". I am ministered to in that I'm not held accountable for their choices. All I can do is lovingly share the Word of which I and they are held accountable and focus on living the life the Lord has called me to, and hoping to be a witness to the lost, when they seek. AMEN.
Carrie,
Thank you for the heads up on yes2truth's belief system; that was very helpful.
Isn't it interesting how people can look at the same exact thing, yet come to totally opposing viewpoints? (i.e. glass is half empty/half full)
You've reminded me that the only damage false teachers can do is to those who don't compare what they hear with Scripture, and then ask God for His perspective on what is written.
I thank God for His Word, for without it in these last days the deceivers would most certainly lead us all astray.
Be Blessed In Our Lord!
Hi there
I enjoyed your hub with great detail, and argument.
Homosexuality has been shoved into the faces of many, and its been treated as if they are aliens from another planet and society must accept them, and make laws for them so they can have extra power to survive. Totally pathetic, humans and must be treated as such, if they have issues with sexuality preferences then why should everyone else be blamed for their handicap minds, and in so doing call it discrimination. Surely I am being discriminated against because I am being compared to a homosexual and found guilty of being a natural person. Comparing abnormality against normality. They are male and female like all others and should be normal in their efforts.
Concerning biblical teachings and Gods design .I cant see whats the fuss about gay marriage, the gays want to satisfy their ways by doing it right (not that it is), let them fool themselves, because they will still suffer the same laws that govern marriage, before God. Let them delude themselves and carry out their vain fantasies.
Ro:1:28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
2Tm:3:8: Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
Ti:1:16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
GB
Great hub - so far. I have to go, so I will finish reading later. So far, awesome! I wanted to add I had yes2truth visit my Tree of Knowledge hub, and there he states that man does not have free will, and that God made some for destruction and some for glory. I argue against that, because we need to take the whole Bible in context, but it seems that yes2truth is unable to walk a straight line here. Glad to see you chased him away with scripture. We should be using scripture to back up reason, not the other way around! Good job thefount. Excellent hub, look forward to finishing it soon.
Hoowantstono,
Thank you for your encouragement, especially on such a hot topic. I especially like what you just wrote about comparing normality with abnormality, and how we as heterosexuals are the ones being discriminated against and harassed for being the natural way God made us.
I believe most if not all of the homosexuals don't really know the real reason why they are pushing for marriage so adamantly. I'm probably going to write on this later, but think about it.
It's not enough for them to live together and do all the things they do together like married people; even the status of a legal civil union is not enough for them.
They feel they MUST be "married" because it is the ultimate perversion for Satan to fling in God's face. Due to the delusion which you so beautifully described, they don't even know they are being used by the devil and headed for the same destruction as Satan and the demons.
We don't necessarily have to tell them what we know in this regard (that is unless The Spirit leads us to), but it's just helpful for us to know what we're dealing with if/when we get an opportunity to evangelize them. I'm willing to treat them fairly, with dignity and respect and like you, I expect and deserve the same. Otherwise, I shake the dust off my feet!
Thanks Again, And Be Blessed My Brother!
Alexander Mark,
Thank you for your comments, and I love your profile image. (cool cat!)
Even though I had just written about the issue of how God gives man the freedom to accept Him, obey Him or not (autonomy), it took me a minute to realize that's what yes2truth's objection was. I thank God for the insight He's continuing to give us on that very important issue.
Would any of us want somebody to love us, respect us, cherish us and learn from us because they were FORCED to or because they deemed us worthy of such and chose to of their own free will?
As I've grown a little older and am much less patient in this regard, and especially because the Bible instructs us to, I refuse to engage in such foolish debates!
No one has commented specifically to the point I've made regarding spiritual vs. secular marriage. Even if homosexuals 'marry' legally, this doesn't make them married in God's eyes! If you have time, I'm curious to know what you or anybody else thinks about that.
Continue To Be Blessed!
Let's add some more specific scriptures to this hub's comments regarding homosexuality, not just the "rebrobate mind" to which they've been given over. There is absolutely NO quesswork when this is done, and that means there is NO arguing, which we are not called to do with them, unless the Holy Spirit directs us to do so.
Genesis 19:4-8 is the story of the men of Sodom wanting to have sex with the male angels and rejected Lot's daughters offered them in their stead.
Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Leviticus 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them."
1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,..."
Matthew 19:4-5 ""Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
Based on this passage in Matthew, we know that God joins a couple (male and female) together; no one else. They must both be believers in order for God to bless the union. For what fellowship hath light with darkness? Adam and Eve didn't have a letter of marriage, but they were indeed made perfectly for each other. God wants us to follow the laws of the land, as written in Romans 13, therefore we can't just say we're married and never actually get married legally, men and women of God!
In my hub about love and hate, the word love (agapao-social/moral sense/prinicple/dutiful) is the love God and we have for "the world" (the unsaved). It's also the same love used when a husband and wife are to love each other. The love we have between God and ourselves is agape, an even greater love! Just thought I'd add that little tid-bit into the mix :)
I agree with just about everything you've said here Carrie.
And I know we're not going to agree on everything, but maybe I missed it somewhere. What law of the land requires that a cohabitating man and woman who are in a monagamous relationship get legally married?
And, what law of the land prohibits a man and a woman from dwelling together in a monogamous relationship, make babies, and raise a family together unless they are legally married?
Are you saying then that all the slave marriages in this country that took place are not valid in God's eyes because the law of the land prevented slaves who were considered to only be "property" from being legally married?
Since when does Man's law supersede God?
We see many Biblical passages speaking of a "letter of divorce". Deuteronomy 24:1 & 3; Matthew 5:31 and 19:7. We also see God's word for us in Romans 13:1 (the whole chapter) "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities." To live with a woman outside of the "letter of marriage, the assumed, since there is a "letter of divorce", is considered "fornication". This is my take on the scriptures, but you being led of the Spirit will know what is right and wrong in your heart.
Some people do not get a "letter of marriage" due to money and property risks. This may be then the motive of "serving mammon" instead of "serving God". I am not to judge; only the word of God will judge in the last day. I love you and pray His guidance in all things as he transforms us from glory to glory in our walk with Him.
Yes, the biblical passages that you refer to apply to the God-governed theocracy of ancient Israel, and not necessarily to this world-governed democracy that we dwell in today.
For the sake of clarification, I am NOT saying that God's people should avoid being legally married, because legal marriage has it's place in society.
I'm simply making the case that legal marriage does not supersede God: just because two people get legally married, as evidenced by a 50%+ divorce rate, that doesn't mean God joined them together.
And if two people are not legally married, that's no guarantee that God didn't join them together on the unseen spiritual level.
In the covenant spiritual marriage that God Himself initiates, that marriage is between God, that man and that woman no matter what anybody else says or thinks about it.
Therefore, it is my belief that the legal aspect of marriage doesn't determine the spiritual.
Based on this, I find that if homosexuals get legally married then what they do is no threat to me as a Christian, because I know that God is not joining men and men together or women and women together (as well as some heterosexual couples).
Also of course, the scriptures you quote apply to us in the Church, and we know what God expects of us.
This is one area where I believe the institutional church of today has failed: We have overemphasized the legal and underemphasized the spiritual. The standards by which we operate are separate from that of the world.
As a husband, father and minister, I need to exercise the dominion that God gave me within my own sphere of influence by training my family and all whom God allows me to share with; that God's ways and His thoughts are higher than man's, that it's His standards that we must live by no matter what's going on in the world because of our love for Him, and in order to be blessed by Him.
The world doesn't dictate to us, and we are not to be threatened by the world's opposition to God. WE are the thermostat: we set the agenda for the world to follow, and if they disobey our Godly examples, then we've done our part and they have God to answer to for themselves. Amen.
Hello thefount. I just wanted to let you know that I am going to answer the main point of your article, but after reading it, I have to really think it over and digest it - you came up with amazing reason and scripture and knowledge, and I am asking myself whether or not it is important to make Bible based laws for everyone. There are many issues. The funny thing was that before I read your article, I was against meddling, but now I am reconsidering! I will come back after some careful thought, you don't need to publish this comment as I'm kind of using it as email :-) God bless you brother.
* thefount - excellent hub, clear, complete and balanced. I apologize in advance for the lengthy comment, it was actually twice as long before I pared it down. I have to say I was in your boat about not getting involved before I read this hub, but you will be surprised to know that you have sparked some deep thought in me about the issue at large, and I have changed my mind and feel that we should prevent gay marriage. On secular marriage versus spiritual marriage: The first question that popped into my mind years ago when the gay marriage issue came up was, why is the government involved with marriage at all? Marriage is a religious and cultural practice, not a government practice, but it is not going away, so we need to deal with the way things are. *Should we prevent Sodomites from marrying? I think so because allowing them to marry has wide repercussions for us. Making the most anti-God sin legal will allow more people to think it's okay to sin, it will affect our children, they will be shaped by a society that raises homosexuality on a pedestal, and society will become more hostile than ever to Bible believers. What do you endorse and support as an American? If Christians are the light of the world, then we have a responsibility to shine as much as possible in every area, including politics, not just inside a church.* if you represent this nation - and as a citizen you do, then it is your responsibility to make your home, your country to be a place that represents you. After that, if the decision is the wrong one, then we can throw up our hands and say the decision was a fair and democratic process where our voice was heard. It isn't right to let only the liberals, atheists and God haters shape the policies of this country, Christians are here too, and America wouldn't be the great free country it has been if it wasn't for Christians standing up for that freedom. *I once had a very smart computer science teacher who told us of mini Linux programs that could be run from a flash drive. He told us we could even get the Bible and laughed saying, "but who reads that?" I should have respectfully said, "I do," but didn't because I felt I shouldn't make waves. I was wrong. I could have opened this PhD's eyes to the fact that some would still find that useful, and his delusion would have been peacefully broken. *What would have happened if Jesus had built a nice church, went there everyday to preach and nobody came? Instead, he was open about it, preaching to everyone who would hear in a place where he would reach a multitude and offend people. But he always did it in love. He ate with sinners, treated them as human beings and didn't hold back when telling them they were sinners. Should we be any different? *We have to remember that although God has given us free will, to make the right or wrong decisions, we do suffer the consequences when we are wrong, even those that do not follow God suffer the consequences. America has become immoral, filthy and God hating. The dollar is not the strongest currency anymore. Americans suffer natural disasters and terrorist attacks. No doubt this is part of the end times, but it's also fair to say that this may have something to do with this country's moral state and departure from God. *We should do what we can to prevent immorality and encourage morality through law, but leave the matter alone when it becomes obvious it will not be resolved and then continue to focus on the particular jobs God has for each of us. *Your well thought out article has not had the intended effect on me I think, but you have also opened my eyes and reminded me that there are consequences to sin and that Christians have a voice in this country and a means to make peaceful lawful change.
Thank you for such a well thought commentary on my article. There is much to consider here, so I’ll just deal with a few things at a time. The last thing you wrote has the most impression on me at this time so that’s what I’ll address. I am not sure what you believe my intended effect in writing such an article is. But I’ll try to make it clear.
When the initiative for homosexual marriage first came up in California some 8 or 9 years ago (whatever it was), I lived there at the time, I voted against it and encouraged our church members to do the same. I wrote this article to spark thought, not to encourage the Church to vote in support of gay marriage.
You’re right about making sure the Church represents itself well in society, and as a Child of God and gospel minister, I believe I did that. When the initiative came up here in LA I did the same.
With all the miracle-making power that Jesus had, did Jesus get involved in politics? Did Jesus impose His morality on others? Did Jesus advocate the legislation of morality? I can’t find anywhere in scripture where He did these things, and if somebody out there can show me, please do.
The legislation of morality is a dangerous two-way door to a nasty Pandora’s Box. If the Church becomes successful at legislating morality, then the heathen unbelievers of the world will seek to legislate immorality in the Church. Is that what we really want?
Can we not see that’s what’s on the horizon if we continue this course? By taking such a hard-line approach to legislate morality, we are leaving our borders of the sanctity of the Church VULNERABLE. We in the Church must guard our borders at all costs!
First we have to recognize that there IS a border. We need to stay on our side, draw them to our side and convert them in the holy environment that God has established for us on our side, rather than stepping over to their side to convert them. Because all they’re going to do is kick, scream and look for ways to retaliate against us on our side!
I’ll be writing another hub on this issue later. But for now, allow me to say that The United States of America is not a God-governed theocracy like ancient Israel or the Church of today. People are free to disobey God if they so choose, and there’s nothing we can do about it, other than lovingly persuade them through our evangelical efforts.
The Love of God and changing people’s hearts from the inside out is where the real power of the Church lies, not the legislation of morality.
The same way we in the Church have imposed our morality on them, what do you think will happen if/when they become the majority vote in this country?! You and I both know they will seek retaliation by trying to control what we do in our churches through the law.
So many people are complaining about government run health-care. The question for us in the Church to consider is: Do We Want A State-Run Church? ANYBODY, please respond to this question.
This is a very delicate, yet highly important issue. Instead of trying to control the unbelievers, we better focus on converting them!
thefount, This nation was originally founded on Christian principles and was One Nation Under God. Because of its freedoms of voting and so forth (and the complacency of voters), this country has become corrupt morso than subject to God's morality, if nothing else. Because we are still the leading nation in charity, God's grace is still with us. However, the curses of 1) now borrowing from other countries instead of lending; 2) terrorist attacks; 3) foreigners rising to power in our country and 4) the plagues hitting this country, we are falling from power as prophesied. Christians need to vote against godless impositions at LEAST, and promote laws of morality and charity, not religion per se.
I agree totally. And I believe there's more to our duties as Christians.
God warned that these things would be taking place in our societies, that the anti-christ agenda of the world would proliferate, that deception would be at an all-time high - indeed these are the times of Great Tribulation with more that is sure to follow.
May I ask, other than for praying and seeking God's face on a daily basis, what do you believe the Christian's main responsibility and role in such a time be? This is not a test! I'm just asking for your opinion :)
thefount, thanks for posting such a logical and well established response to my comment. Just in case I gave the wrong impression - I did not think you were endorsing gay marriage.
I have to think about how this country was 50 years ago. Everyone knew who God was, everyone knew about the Gospel. Now, there's filth on TV, everyone thinks the Bible is just an opinion paper, and evolution and immorality reign because Christians' objections were drowned when school policy makers forced those things down our throats, I grew up in a school where God was beneath mentioning, and I even sat in a class about homosexual lifestyles. At the time, not knowing better, I asked many questions because I was curious about the gay "culture" and open-minded. Thankfully, I never went that way, and I am in the right place now. But it tool a loooooooooooong time to rid myself of the evolution garbage. I actually felt guilty about not believing in evolution!
That is the power of Satan, and our apathy. If liberals were to hold to the doctrine they pretend to believe in, (some do), and evolution was taught as well as the Bible, then I would have had a much clearer view on religion and God than I had, and my life would have been somewhat different. I still ended up saved and growing in God, but I have lost time because of these wicked teachings and the absence of God in school.
You're right, Jesus never got involved in politics or society. He preached salvation, morality and love. However, he had only one robe and a rock for a pillow - virtually homeless and dependent on the charity of others. There is nothing wrong with that and that was what Jesus was supposed to do. But we live in houses, and we are citizens of the countries we live in, (I am still Dutch - so I admit I am not in the same boat, that is why I encourage others to vote), since we are blessed with houses and all the things that come with residence and citizenship, it is also our responsibility to make change as far as our freedom allows it.
I like what Carrie said, that we should promote morality and charity, stand against godless impositions, but we should not promote our religion in law. But we do believe that sex or language should be left out of a G rated movie, so why not fight for that as much as we can?(as an example).
I think our role as Christians does not change whether we are at the end times or not. Focus on God first through prayer and seeking God's face like you said, being charitable and so on, but also to defend what you have, what has been given to us by the millions who have shed their blood for our freedom. Christians have become pariahs in this country, and it shouldn't be so.
Wasn't America right to have a revolution? Yes, because of it, America was able to send out missionaries across the globe, perform acts of charity to ailing nations and help police disputes. These are acts of a Christian nation, none of which would have occurred without Christian men standing up to the British, fighting against oppression so Christians and non-Christians could be free.
We are not yet at a point where we can only run. That day will come, but it is not today. This is my final point. If we do not say "no" to immorality, they will cross that border you speak of, and come in and tell us we cannot have "hate speech" in our churches anymore. No more preaching against sin. Then they will come a few years later and edit out the portions of the Bible they do not endorse.
Evil men are happiest when we say nothing, and shout and yell when we have victory. Because when we say and do nothing, they tighten the circle and infringe on our rights, our right to live and act and speak, that is - until we fight back. If we allow them to continue to shape our society, they will chase us out of church, and erase Christianity from the minds of the people.
I really appreciate what you've written here. And I know you have some more good hubs in you! :) But I think you might find it surprising that Jesus DID have a house:
"....They said unto him, Rabbi (Master) where dwellest thou? He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day for it was about the tenth hour. John 1:38b-39"
Would successful businessmen leave their full-time occupations to follow a poor man that couldnt provide for them?
And why would Jesus need a treasurer? Hmm... and how could Jesus' ministry still function with that treasurer constantly stealing from the bag, unless there was an abundance of some kind?
I just don't believe Jesus was as poor as many preachers and teachers have made him out to be, and if He was dependent upon anybody it was His Father (who owns the cattle on a thousand hills), and not just the charity of man.
As far as our topic is concerned, that line, the borders that we must maintain as the Church has been blurry for a long time, but is now becoming clearer. I agree, 50 years ago things were much different, and this is a Christian nation.
But as more and more unbelief proliferates generation after generation, even as more unbelievers immigrate to our country, the ratio of believers to unbelievers will either change for the better or for the worst - all depending on what the Church does:
If the Church gets on the wrong battlefield (by zealously attacking unbelievers and judging them) and fails to be the salt (influence) of the earth by lovingly evangelizing them to convert them (hey, they're on our turf right?), then I believe we are at least partly to blame if they start to overrun us.
Since we know they are executing their agenda of unbelief in the public school system - where is our private Christian school system? (for example)
We are at a point where we must establish/re-establish our borders as Christians, regroup and re-evaluate why we're getting slammed on our own turf.
This is a fantastic hub. How far short we tend to fall when it comes to love? it is FAR easier to judge and condemn those outside of Christ than to reach out to them with the Gospel and love them WHERE THEY ARE AT. When Christ died for me, i was HIS enemy. Yet in that position against HIM and all HIS ways He died for me. The Father demonstrated HIS love in such an amazing way. I think we have got way too political and forgotten what our true call is. To go and make disciples. IE Willing followers of Christ. Not forced external compliance to His laws. This hub presented an angle which is certainly in my heart, but i had not processed it to my head in such an eloquent way. So i thank you for doing that for me. And i will be back to read it again when i can concentrate wholly. Thanks again
HeMustIncrease, what an excellent ghost-writer name! Thanks for your encouragement. I found the LOVE approach as opposed to the bible-thumper approach to be much more effective when trying to win somebody to Christ and away from sinfulness.
It only makes sense: the Bible says "we love Him because He first loved us" so if we want somebody to love God, we must show them God's love through our own lives.
God said if we love Him to keep His commandments and at the same time, God doesn't want people to obey Him because they are forced to, but because they WANT TO out of their pure love for Him.
Our focus on God's love towards us is the only thing that can make our love for Him grow, and as our love for Him grows our desire to obey Him more and sin less grows! It's really that simple. Blessings!
Absolutely! I have come under the ‘bible thumping’ you WILL obey approach even from believers. NOT very motivating at all. Rules without relationship equals rebellion. Heard that this morning on AFR. Pretty much sums up the approach of ‘some’ conservative Christians today. All about DO this and live rather than LOOK and live and THEN the doing comes from the BEING.
Been thinking about this hub alot this afternoon. Church and state are to be separated. BUT when a country has been founded on Biblical principles and laws and its constitution based on such, surely it is just to seek to withhold that? If this country had been founded on pagan laws and homosexuality was applauded and people able to legally get married as they so wished etc, then we as Christians would not have the ‘right’ to enforce a Biblical law upon a pagan country. We would have a command from God to preach the Gospel and demonstrate the love of Christ. But not the right to make any kind of political claim upon the nation. It would be a country we would have a heart to send missionaries to. But conversely do pagans have the ‘right’ to enforce their laws upon a Christian country? This nation was founded upon Biblical principles and laws. (I recognise that the percentage of actual born again believers is not high, but the country is founded on Biblical laws nonetheless.) Nobody is forced to remain living here if they prefer the laws of another land. I am from the UK and as such am an alien here (legally :)) and so it is my duty to abide by the laws of THIS land and not come here trying to change them according to my own agenda. Homosexuals DO have the God given right to live as they so choose. And to receive the just penalty for those choices unless they repent and turn to Christ. But do they have the RIGHT to force their choices upon a nation founded under GOD?
When God gave the nation of Israel all the laws of the old covenant. It was not with the purpose of ‘saving’ them or ‘forcing’ them to love and obey Him. It was primarily to give them external boundaries to keep sin from running its fullest course of evil. If there is no law that says ‘do not murder’ then the consciences of men will ultimately become so seared that murder will become perfectly acceptable. Think of the abortion laws? Since abortion was made legal, millions of women seemingly have NO conscience about taking the life of an unborn baby. It has become ‘acceptable’. There is no longer that boundary of law which kept at least some from murdering their babies. This nation was founded on Gods laws. As such do we not have the right to seek to maintain that basis for living? Or are we to simply live quiet lives and permit the pagan culture to overturn Bible based laws and put pagan ones in their place? I work in a pregnancy centre as a volunteer 3 hrs a week and come across women who ultimately decide to abort their babies. I don’t treat those women any differently than the ones who keep their babies. ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I speak to them of Christ and they are free to make their own choices. And either way, they are assured of our love for them. But does this mean that i have no role in seeking to support and uphold the laws of this land that are aligned to Gods laws? When you say homosexuals have a right to marry. Do you mean that we should not oppose their requests to change the laws? If so, how do you feel about the laws on abortion etc? Would you say that the pagan are free to make up whatever laws they so choose and we as Christians must just live quiet lives and make no opposition to them? Or are you speaking more in terms of the manner in which we oppose them?
The nation of Israel were told that they were to be welcoming to any aliens. BUT that those wishing to live with them must abide by their laws. Nobody was forced to join the nation of Israel. America has long been KNOWN as a Christian country. Nobody is forced to live here. But surely there IS a case for “when in Rome, do as the Romans do”. There are places in the world where homosexuals can freely marry one another. Where people can have sex change operations. Where people can use drugs legally and visit prostitutes within the law of the land. Seeking to maintain what is already established is not the same as forcing changes to laws against the present culture of that nation. Whether homosexuals get married or not is not in truth a major concern for me. It has no real affect on my life. But when they begin demanding that churches which personally oppose same sex marriage MUST preform these ceremonies we are a long way from a democracy.
But if tommorrow the law which prohibits murder were to be removed by the pagans in this nation i would be pretty scared. After all, if it was suddenly ok to shoot your neighbour if he bugged you, then i am sure there would be quite alot more dead neighbours around. Laws protect society as a whole. They keep many people from acting out greater evils because of the fear of punishment. That is life. If we permit the pagan culture to remove all God given boundaries for living we are going to end up in a lawless society. And that would not be a pretty sight for ANYBODY, whether believer or not. Morality that comes from a changed heart cannot be forced upon anybody. It comes from Christ. But external boundaries are something God set for unsaved people for their own good. Maintaing a law that prohibits abortion would not make the slightest bit of difference to the inner heart morality of a nation. But it WOULD make a substantial difference to the external morality and save many, many lives. I need to rethink all of this and be certain of my stand. :)
To HeMustIncrease - Thanks for stopping back by. As I examine your statements, I agree with you only to a point. Just because this nation was founded upon Christian principles, this does not give Christians the right to deny autonomy because with all the power God has, God Himself doesn't deny the right to reject and disobey Him.
'A nation founded under GOD' the way you wrote it is not a nation that denies freedom to choose.
Freedom of choice is biblical and Godly, and if the majority of society votes in homosexual marriages to be legal (possibly not far off the horizon)- that will never be a threat to what Christians do in The Church in this nation or any other nation.
God Himself creates the great spiritual divide between those who are blessed and those who are cursed - that's His business (Goshen/Egypt).
Your argument about laws stopping crime is not valid because no law has ever stopped crime from ever occurring. God's laws are violated on the regular 24/7, including homosexuality. If God's laws in the Bible on homosexuality are not honored now, what makes us think they'll be honored if we make national laws of our own?
Even though The Bible speaks against it, homosexuals live together, sleep together, have sex together and act just like heterosexually married couples do now, so what difference would it make if they got legally married? They're already doing what they want to do anyway.
Have man's laws stopped murder? Of course not!
Women were having abortions way before it was legal to do so, and I personally have intervened and stopped many women from having abortions while it is now legal simply by sharing the love of God and reasoning with them. Those of us under GRACE know we are way above The Law, and that the law can't save anybody!
Now I would prefer to once again make it illegal to abort babies for non-medical emergencies. But when it comes to homosexuality - if laws allowing homosexual marriage were to be voted in that tells me two things:
1) the people who voted those laws in place were probably never evangelized by a Spirit-led person (which is an indictment against The Church, and
2) the opportunity to persuade homosexuals over to the Lord's side still exists no matter what The Laws are.
When I say homosexuals have the right to marry, I'm only referring to their autonomous freedom of choice. Sure we have the right in society to stand up and vote according to our Christian convictions - as well we should.
This country is all about freedom of choice and freedom of speech, so in no way am I saying don't vote or voice your convictions.
I appreciate the respectful way you asked me if I am referring to the manner in which we oppose them. Your discernment is very keen and I appreciate that very much. I fully object to the Bible-thumping approach which we discussed earlier, so we are clear there.
My point is if and/or when Believers get out-voted by unbelievers in this society on any issue, what threat is that to those of us who are still in The Church? We are not of this world anyway, nor do man's laws supersede God's laws. We operate on a higher plane!
The real threat to The Church is to NOT exercising our God-given spiritual dominion in this earth realm and NOT lovingly evangelizing folks by reaching out to lost souls the way Jesus told us to.
Instead of running folks off and further jeopardizing their souls by trying to ram the gospel down their throat with laws that don't even work, we need to recognize that God holds us accountable for how we treat them. If we run them off with laws because we refused to properly and lovingly evangelize them, do you not think their blood will be on our hands? That's the real threat to The Church.
The Bible clearly teaches: We love Him because He first loved us. God doesn't want people who are forced to love and obey Him. He wants people that will love and obey Him because they want to, not because they were forced to.
If we're trying to modify somebody's behavior, The Law never works but focusing on God's love always works. We're not after behaviour modification, we're after heart transformation!
By the way H, we are NOT the nation of Israel and we need to stop comparing apples to oranges. The USA is a nation of mixed religions, cultures etc. where freedom of choice, freedom of religion, freedom of speech rule.
Once again, the separation between Church & State is biblical if not legal according to our laws; spiritually speaking The Church is equivalent to the nation of Israel (God's Chosen People) and what we do in our churches is not dictated by what goes on in society.
That's a key point because if the church tries to dictate what goes on in society, then after a while society will be trying to dictate what goes on in our churches. Is that what we really want? Don't miss that point.
As far as the legal protection issues you bring up, I don't see laws against murder ever changing because mostly everybody agrees that things are terrible enough as they are even though murder is illegal - what would ever be the point in eradicating that law?
Also, even though sin is sin, from a societal standpoint I don't think it's fair to compare murder or abortion to homosexual marriage.
My final take on this subject is that man's laws don't & can't change a person's heart, but God's love and grace can.
Billy Graham said it best: "It's God's job to judge, it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict, and it's our job to love." Blessings!
yes2truth 2 years ago
Hello,
The problem re lost and unsaved homosexuals and the counterfeit church is this false idea they have that everyone must get saved in this life or in this age or else it's hell fire and eternal punishment. None of which is true.
All this too, when all the while they will have their chance for repentance and salvation in the second resurrection after the Great White Throne tribunal.