The State-Run Church
70The Slippery Slope
Is the Church headed towards being run by the State? We better take another look, because The Church in this country is headed down on a slippery slope!
When the initiative for homosexual marriage first came up in California, I lived there at the time, I voted against it and encouraged our church members to do the same. When the initiative came up here in Louisiana I did the same because I believe The Church must represent Christ well in free democratic society, and as a Child of God and gospel minister, I believe I did that.
I wrote this article “Preacher Supports Gay Marriage?” to spark thought, not to encourage the Church to vote in support of gay marriage. That article was a set-up for this one.
My goal in writing that article is for The Church to take a closer look at how we are the salt of the earth as well as being in the world but not of the world. We set the agenda according to God’s mandate for us by the power and authority He gives us, and yet we can’t control the unbelievers in society, nor should we try. That’s where many of us in the Church have a problem.
In the Church, we operate by a Higher Calling that the world scoffs at, and we are not going to MAKE unbelievers turn to Godly standards by legislating morality. Not only is legislating morality completely ineffective (i.e. Prohibition), the legislation of morality is a dangerous two-way door to a nasty Pandora’s Box. The Church in this country is already on a very dangerous slippery slope. Can we not see what’s on the horizon if we continue this course?
The Church Is Getting Slammed!
Every since the Church began to ‘succeed’ at legislating morality, the heathen unbelievers of this country began their relentless agenda of legislating immorality against the Church. We’re blaming them for all the hell that’s broken out in society, but we fail to realize that by legislating our morality on this heathen society, we swung the door wide open for them to legislate their immorality against us!
The United States of America is not a God-governed theocracy like ancient Israel or the Church of today. The heathen know this better than the Church does. They are using our ignorance of this fact to our disadvantage, and we are helping the unbelievers get into position to desecrate our churches, and possibly even make the Church go underground. (Yes, I said it!)
While we are not responsible for the immoral acts that others commit, we’re the ones that ignited this forest fire. Instead of lovingly evangelizing them, we arrogantly provoked them by trying to control what they do in a free democratic society.
By continuing to take such a hard-line approach to legislate morality, we leave the borders which separate Church and State even MORE vulnerable. We in the Church must guard our borders at all costs. But first we have to recognize that there IS a border!
It is my belief that we need to stay on our side, lovingly draw them to our side and convert them in the holy environment that God has established for us, rather than stepping over to their side (the world), thumping their heads with our Bibles and trying to control the moral decisions that they make through the law. Because all they’re doing is kicking, screaming and looking for ways to retaliate against us on our side (The Church)!
The unbelievers know our Constitution very well. They know their freedoms BETTER than we know them, they have totally flipped the script on us, and they are using those freedom laws to protect the State from the Church! Look at how the laws of this land are already being turned against Christianity. The Church is getting her buns kicked in this society!
The removal of prayers from public schools is just one example. The majority of ungodly ones can do that to us in a free democratic society, and they have done just that! But can they do that to us in our churches? Not now.
The SANCTITY Of The Church
The Bible refers to us as a remnant chosen by grace (Rom. 11:5) and by definition of the word, a ‘remnant’ is a relatively small number. We are greatly outnumbered by unbelievers in this world, and in this country (U.S.) If we are going to influence unbelievers to turn to Christ, it won’t be by our might, or our power, but by God’s Spirit of love, tolerance (without compromise), patience, and the mind of Christ.
With all the miracle-making power that Jesus had, did Jesus get involved in politics? Did Jesus impose His morality on others? Did Jesus advocate the legislation of morality? I can’t find anywhere in scripture where He did these things, and if somebody out there can show me, please do.
Due to the bi-laws we establish, we can run our autonomous churches according to God-governed theocracy: we can keep homosexuals out of our pulpits, refuse to marry them, etc., etc. We are free to teach our congregations and families God’s protocols without the world’s outside interference. Why? Because God demands that the Church be holy. Therefore the Church and the State are separate, and the laws of the land currently reflect that- FOR NOW.
We need to recognize what’s really going on, and do everything we can to protect the Church from the State. The unbelievers of the world control the State, we don’t. We control the Church, they don’t. What they do in the world is in the world, and if they are the majority, we have no control of what they do in the world.
However, we do have full control of what goes on in our churches – they don’t. And we need to keep it that way by stopping the counterproductive push of legislating morality.
So, What's Really Going On?
The same way we in the Church have imposed our morality on the unbelievers, what do you think they’ve been doing to us with their majority vote in this country?! We all better wake up to the fact that they are retaliating and gaining ground with their knowledge of the freedom laws of this land and their majority vote!
Can we not see that our own self-righteous and judgmental attitude towards them has done nothing but anger them to the point where they are calling us hypocrites and looking for ways to retaliate? The harder we push our morality on them through the law, the harder they’ve been pushing their immorality back on us through the law, and they are tearing our tails up! We can’t even have the 10 commandments on display in a government courthouse anymore!
By the way, The Church hasn’t done nearly enough in the establishment of forming our own Christian schools. The unbelievers who control the State can’t stop us from forming our own private Christian schools – at least not yet.
And homosexuals are not satisfied just being able to live together and have legal civil unions; they want to take that which is holy (marriage) and desecrate it according to Satan’s agenda. They are already doing this in the world, but what better place for Satan to do this but in The Church? Is that what we really want? Again I say, we must guard the sanctity of the Church.
You Mean Let The Heathen Run Wild?
NO. I’m saying slow down, take a look at what we’ve been doing by legislating morality, evaluate why it’s not working (i.e. Prohibition), take a look at what they’re doing (pushing back with their immorality) and why it keeps working against us more and more, and look down the road a little ways to see what’s bound to happen.
When I speak of the Church's effort to legislate morality, I am referring to these freedom of choice issues. Sure, we in the Church can and should vote against the marriage of homosexuals because we are in a democracy that allows us to voice our stance.
But if homosexuals ‘marry’ according to the world’s agenda in this country, (and they already are) we in the Church must recognize – that’s their business (outside of The Church), and that they are not really married according to God’s protocol in the Church, for “male and female created He them.”
Because we know that some will never be converted, we must maintain our borders against the enemy, and do what we do best in the Church. Pray! Study! Teach! Love! Evangelize!
Since we’re so greatly outnumbered, and we’re not here to stay (as heaven is our home), and our job is to love our enemies and evangelize the world, we simply need to take a CLOSER look at how legislating morality is not effective (Prohibition), and consider the ongoing trend that’s occurring right before our eyes.
They are legislating their immorality on us at a rate never before seen in history, but it's NOT over. We can do something about this right now. But if we continue down this slippery slope, before long they’ll be controlling what we do in our churches if we let them. This is a very delicate, yet highly important issue. Instead of trying to control them through the law, we better focus on God’s guidance and power to convert them!
People in a free democratic society are free to disobey God and be as immoral as they please and there’s nothing we can do about it other than pray, exercise dominion over the devils at the spiritual level, and lovingly persuade people through sincere evangelical efforts.
The Love of God and changing people’s hearts from the inside out through Spirit-led delivery of the Word of God is where the REAL power of the Church lays, not the legislation of morality which only perpetuates more legislation of immorality!
So many people are complaining about government run health-care. The question for us in the Church to consider is: Do We Want A State-Run Church?
I hope this helps. Onward Christian Soldiers!
Thank You for visiting our hub! You are welcome to visit our online newspaper that serves the North Central Louisiana area: www.thefount.org
A State Run Church?
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I agree. The State doesn't run the Church, but there are some hot-headed advocates that sure want to control The Church. And they are pushing real hard to do so because of the way certain ones in The Church have been legislating morality on them.
Until Jesus comes back as you've pointed out, in your opinion what should The Church do?
I get the publication sometimes "New Yorkers For Constitutional Freedom." It is a notice of all the legislation in New York and Federally that we as Christains must note and vote or write or petition against. The world and thus the United States is becoming increasingly more evil. What once was a shining example of Christain country is now proclaimed by our president to be so no longer. I believe this has happened because Christians sit on their hands and let others do the work and those that do so are becoming more and more diluted. By small degrees many things that we have done are no longer tolerated. The model verse for a nation to turn this around I believe is 2 Chronicles 7:14. I know that this verse was written for Israel but this is a viable formula for all to employ. If all Christians would stand up and let their voice be heard as one, we wouldn't look like we are a kook fringe but actually a number to be recognized. We let the loud mouth atheists and worse speak which they have a right to do, but we do not let our voice be heard because we like to let others do work while we sit or just deal with our own. We do not show ourselves and "let the redeemed of the Lord say so!" Legislating morality is not forcing others to be like us. But they legislating immorality goes far beyond anything that we try. It is time to take back our country and to do it the right way. We need to vote. We need to call if necessary. We need to write and let these guys know that we do care and care passionately about what they say is normal or abnormal. It is not for them to tell my child that they can't pray but they do and it is partially my fault because I have not done enough. I also realize that the Anti-Christ is on his way and things must set up for him and his new world order. I know that nothing can be done to stop him. But I do not want to think that because I didn't do all that I can, my child will go through pain. If I do all I can and they still go through it at least I will know that I did. I will then sleep much easier. I love you - the fount - I hope you know that but I must do all I can to stay informed and be active to try to defeat these evil forces. Call it legislating morality if you want but I can't look at it this way. I see what it is as God's biblical way. Prohibition tried to keep booze off the street and those that tried and failed can sleep because they tried. I will try to get to pornography. I will try to keep it legal to have freedom of speech and the other freedoms that they would remove from me and mine.
As Lot and his family lived in Sodom & Gomorrah's abominable practices and yet remained faithful to God, and thus He delivered them out of His judgment upon them, so He will do for us. I think you're right about pushing morality LAWS for the States, because we are the minority now (which is so different from the founing of our Constitution), indeed they will retaliate and win due to sheer numbers. We need to vote against what they propose into laws, especially those that may eventually try to govern churches, just so we are clear in our accountability to our Lord. Christians who don't vote against such things I think will be held accountable.
As we face tribulation that will continue to get worse, we must remember that they might "kill the body", but they cannot "kill our soul". AMEN.
It's so hard to address somebody as No Body :) , but I appreciate you taking the time to write. Do you happen to know if that publication you mentioned has a website?
You mentioned a lot here, but what's first on my mind is the anti-christ, which I happen to already be here "even now there are many anti-christs (I Jn 2:18)"
I don't see us 'taking back our country' by just voiting and speaking against the immorality of society publicly. These things are necessary for us to do, but with discretion and respect.
Certain zealous Christians are antagonizing and provoking the unbelievers by thumping the Bible on their heads, killing abortion doctors, holding loud public protests, etc. and I don't find anywhere in my Bible where Jesus got involved in such acts to display His opposition to evil.
If you're going to change somebody, it's not going to work from the outside in, but from the inside out through the Word of God. To me, the REAL work is to lovingly evangelize the unbelievers God's way before they overrun us completely, rather than using their worldly methodology.
And yes Carrie, I'm glad you mentioned Sodom & Gomorrah. That's a good example of God leading His people out of a wicked land that He was about to judge. He demands that we be separated from the unbelievers for His use.
I agree with you in that we should vote according to our Christian convictions, while at the same time we have evangelical outreach to perform - and THIS is where the Church has been abandoning her first love.
Unfortunately, the Christians of today seem to be more governed by entertainment and pleasure than the Holy Spirit of God, and have very little interest in seeking and saving that which is lost before Jesus returns - but then we want to holler when the heathen rage? Now you know that's pitiful!
When these people below are loosed upon our country, the wicked will scatter like so many rats!!! And many will want to kill these ones below.
But please read this first...thank you :-)
If small minded believers would stop whining about how we need more rights, more laws for this and against that, how we need more Christians in the government and school system and Jack-in-the Box and bla, bla, bla blabber blabber, snivel, piss and moan about it all....enough already!!!
Let me remind you that the first followers of Messiah had no rights, no Roman Government friendly men to do their bidding, no "marketing manager for their churches", no big fat budget, no mass media, no freedom of speech and they made no demands!!!
WHAT THEY DID DO WAS SPEAK WITH A LOUD VOICE!!!!!...HEAVEN IS A LOUD PLACE AS IT IS WRITTEN, and they were not afraid to tell it like it was and is, they had no concern for their own lives and comforts and entertainment...NO, they were soldiers who wore armor and who did not look to some idiot in the government to "stand up for them"...what a joke that would be. Believers today need to do exactly what our first Apostles did, they were told to shut up and they said...
"But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God."..."But Peter and John replied, "Do you think God wants us to obey you rather than Him?"These followed every law of the authority but that one...this is how they set the world on fire and spread the good news....not by means of men.They did not shut up, they stood in the face of angry men and kept right on teaching and preaching Yahshua / Jesus!!! We have to many "Christians" walking around in chicken suits and clucking today, they are FULL OF FEAR and will do exactly what the school system tells them instead of just keep praying openly and boldly, taking the heat, the arrests, beating and the bitter persecution that will come and rejoicing about it all. Not stand around and cry about it to the people in charge or the spineless leadership in the churches or gossip about it while they have coffee and cake in the courtyard of the comfy church they attend.ENOGUH ALREADY!!!!!! Give it a rest and get yourself persecuted, take off your diapers, put down the milk bottle and be a soldier for once!!!
THESE ARE THE DAYS IN WHICH ALMIGHTY ABBA IS RAISING UP SONS AND DAUGHTERS THAT HE HAS CREATED TO BE JUST LIKE THE SCRIPTURES BELOW TESTIFIES OF!!!
THESE ARE THOSE OF WHOM ABBA HAS PUT THE SPIRIT OF EL-EE-YA-HOO (Elijah) UPON BY HIS OWN SOVEREIGN POWER, SOME HAVING EVEN A DOUBLE PORTION OF THE ANOINTING AND THESE SONS AND DAUGHTERS CANNOT BE QUENCHED FOR THEIR MIND IS LIKE AN ADAMANT FLINT AND WAS MADE TO STRIKE AGAINST THE MIND OF EVERY LOFTY THOUGHT THAT WOULD DARE EXALT ITSELF AGAINST THE MIND OF THE MESHIACH (Messiah) AND THEY CAST DOWN ALL LIES AND IMAGINATIONS; EVEN FROM LEADERS OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD THAT ARE CONTRARY TO DIVINE WISDOM, UNDERSTANDING AND KNOWLEDGE THAT LEADS TO SALVATION AND THE RESURRECTION FOR THOSE WHO SHALL RULE WITH MESSIAH!!! THEY ARE BITTERLY PERSECUTED SONS AND DAUGHTERS WHO ROAM THE EARTH CARRYING WORDS OF CELESTIAL FIRE FROM ON HIGH, WORDS THAT CANNOT BE CONFOUNDED BY ANY MAN AND THEY HAVE BEEN SENT TO SHUT THE MOUTHS OF THE EVIL TONGUE OF OUR DAY!!!
“And He has made my mouth like a SHARP SWORD; in the shadow of His hand has He hid me: and He has made me a polished arrow; in his quiver has he kept me close”"Behold, I have made your face hard against their faces, and your forehead hard against their foreheads."“Like emery harder than flint have I made your forehead. Fear them not, nor be dismayed at their looks, for they are a rebellious house.”"Because the Sovereign LORD helps me, I will not be dismayed. Therefore, I have set my face like a FLINT, determined to do His will. And I know that I will triumph.""He who gives me justice is near. Who will dare to oppose me now? SO NOW, WHERE ARE MY ENEMIES? Let them appear!""See, The Sovereign LORD is on my side! Who will declare me guilty? All my enemies will be destroyed like old clothes that have been eaten by moths!"
Then HE added, "Son of man, let all My words sink deep into your own heart first. Listen to them carefully for yourself.
"Stephen"Adamant Sharp Sworded Flint"
***I am nothing special, just a vessel.
Find it here and please read more of my hubs...
If you like THE SHARP SWORD.
I think you hit the nail on the head with THAT one! Especially with that last quote ""Son of man, let all My words sink deep into your own heart first. Listen to them carefully for yourself."
See, most EVERY Christian that I know personally, does not read their Bible unless they are at church on Sunday, and that's only to hear somebody else's message about what it says.
How can we know of what God expects from us when we won't even take the time to pray (unless we need something from Him) or read His love letter and instructions for living to us? That's the same root cause as to why the Enemy is having his way, when collectively we all should have bound and rebuked him by now.
When exactly in your thesis did the church begin to succeed in legislating morality? You mean in 1789? You act like the church is on the offensive when it is plain to see the church is playing defense—defending the Truth.
Christians ignited this forest fire? That is ridiculous. I'm sorry. You mean the Supreme Court decisons over the last 50 years removing God from public life is a church offensive?
Jesus told us to rebuke our brothers and sisters if they are living in sin. He said, "Go and sin no more." If you think Jesus Christ didn't talk about Sin I would like to know what Bible you are reading.
The church has imposed its morality? When? in the 18th Century? We have a vested interest in a healthymoral society for ourselves and our children and grandchildren. We have just as much to right to speak about The Truth as the other side has the right to speak falsehood. Anyone who won't stand for the Truth doesn't understand the Apostle Paul. All Law is Moral Law.
Your entire premise would only be true if homosexual marriage had ALWAYS been legal and accepted and NOW Christians were trying to change it. How about if they want to stamp 666 on your forehead? Would you oppose that legislation? Or would you be "Imposing" your beliefs on somebody else?
Thank you for your comments Mr. Watkins.
We do agree on something. Of course the Church has a right to speak and absolutely should speak out against immorality! But the Church can’t control the actions of others outside the boundaries of our churches, nor control what people do in the privacy of their own homes or the relationships they engage in. And just like I said previously, I’m referring to freedom of choice issues.
All law is moral law you say? What about the laws that man makes which oppose God's law? I find this argument to be flawed. All the laws which GOD makes are moral laws, and are indeed higher than man's laws.
But only within the confines of Church properties and in a God-governed theocratic society can we impose God's laws; not in a free democratic society such as the United States of America where people are free to choose their sexual orientations and lifestyles. For some reason, certain ones hate this talk about people’s freedoms, but this is an issue of autonomy, which God Himself honors:
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (Joshua 24:15)”
I didn’t say EVERYBODY in the Church has been attempting to legislate morality: just certain zealous ones who believe in controlling others by imposing upon people’s autonomy– as if our society is a theocracy like ancient Israel, or as if the boundaries of our churches extend beyond our church properties and homes, which they don’t.
As far as the 50 years of removing God from public – I never said the Church is on the offensive by removing God from public life. You’ve got it twisted Mr. Watkins. I said these are the things that the UNGODLY are doing in retaliation to certain ones in the Church who stepped beyond their Church boundaries and attempted to legislate their morality in a democratic society.
I stand by my premise:
Instead of lovingly persuading homosexuals and other unbelievers towards Christ and evangelizing them like God told us to, some of us have pointed a wagging finger saying “shame on you!” and based on this self-righteous, judgmental and control-freak mentality still held by some people in the Church today, we pushed our morality on them through the law (Prohibition is just one example), and they are pushing back with their immorality even harder just out of sheer numbers.
The unbelievers are becoming more successful with their immoral legislations in this free democratic society because they know what turf they’re playing on BETTER than we do – that’s the forest fire I say we started, and we need a different approach.
It is about wagging fingers. You claim to be a minister of the Gospel. If any person asks me to grant public, societal approval of his favorite sin the answer is NO! That is what Jesus would say. That is what Paul would say. Maybe in your head one could ask Jesus, hey Jesus, shouldn't those practicing homosexual behaviors be allowed to marry someone of their own sex. If you even think Jesus would say yes, then you sir are possessed by a demon. Read your Bible. Then get back to me. If you really are a minister , you should be ashamed to preach the public condonement of what is an abomination to God from your pulpit. Shame on you.
But I appreciate your opinion and your fine writing.
So, where exactly in my article have I "preached public condonement of what is an abomination from God"? Once again sir, you twist my words into something I did not say.
Whether you believe I am a minister or not is irrelevant, and even though I didn't call you a finger wagger, you've identified yourself as one. You speak as one who looks down on others for their sin problem as if you have none!
As a self-professed finger wagger, in Jesus' day you'd be the only one who would've dared stand in Jesus' presence and stoned the woman caught in adultery. Now that's the REAL shame.
Mr. Watkins,
Since you are an advid student of the Bible, instead of twisting my words, slandering and falsely accusing me, why don't you simply prove me wrong throug the Word of God?
With all the miracle making power that Jesus had while He walked this earth, why haven't you showed me in the Bible where Jesus legislated morality or imposed on anybody's autonomy?
You have no such justification.
That first sentence was a mistake. I meant to say, "IT is NOT about wagging fingers." I type fast, knowing that when I hit "Post Comment" I can then check my words and spelling. But for some reason, on only your page, the comment disappears.
So, I meant to say I am not wagging my finger. I and my nation are being demanded to approve of sinful behavior and while not wagging any fingers I do not have to approve. And changing the law to allow "Gay Marriage" is all about approval. They want our nation to give them the stamp of our approval for their behavior. It is not about marriage. Marriage is simply a means to get the stamp.
Next comes prohibiting reading Scripture in public that speaks ill of "men lying with men."
This is how I know you are a phony. No real minister of the Bible would equate me not approving publicly of sin; with stoning someone the death. I never said we should kill them. Minister my butt.
Jesus was not a legislator. You don't see anywhere in your Bible where Jesus talks about sin? And the fate of sinners? And to rebuke your wayward brother? Foregiveness is preseded by repentance. Does a national movement for the societal approval of sin sound in any way repentant to you?
What version do have? Lucifer's? Why don't read my Hub "Life of Jesus." That should teach you what the Bible says.
We need to be about the business of THE FATHER and if HIS business clashes with that of tiny minded men in authority, we need to obey our ABBA...just like Daniel did, like Peter, like James, like John, like Paul etc...I loved it when they said "we will obey GOD long before we obey you"....that is when the laws of GOD are against those of men.
If believers spent as much time reading the scriptures, praying, preaching on the corner, in the schools, living the anointing, doing the works of The Master (heal the sick, feed the homeless, take care of the widow, raise a few dead folk, cast out some demons)...going place to place teaching the truth....as they do on watching the stupid ass TV, going to movies and being entertained, "legislation and vote getting and petitions"...they'd be in jail and would have no time for convincing the heathen with legislation.
If they tell us "you can't pray here or there"...we need to pray, get arrested, beaten or whatever...if they say "no preaching in that place or on this corner"...preach on man....if they say "you cannot talk about this or that in your churches or we will shut you down"....well, yep...talk on about it.
Here is the deal that if followed would turn this country on its head and not one vote would matter if it were against us....ready? PAY STRICK ATTENTION TO VERSES 6, 7 & 8....IF WE DID THESE THINGS LISTED HERE...THEY COULD PASS ANY LAW THEY WANTED AND WE WOULD THRIVE MORE THAT WE EVER HAVE.
Deu 6:1 "These are all the commands, laws, and regulations that the Lord your God told me to teach you so you may obey them in the land you are about to enter and occupy, Deu 6:2 and so you and your children and grandchildren might fear the Lord your God as long as you live. If you obey all his laws and commands, you will enjoy a long life. Deu 6:3 Listen closely, Israel, to everything I say. Be careful to obey. Then all will go well with you, and you will have many children in the land flowing with milk and honey, just as the Lord, the God of your ancestors, promised you. Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord alone.[fn1] Deu 6:5 And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength. Deu 6:6 And you must commit yourselves wholeheartedly to these commands I am giving you today. Deu 6:7 Repeat them again and again to your children. Talk about them when you are at home and when you are away on a journey, when you are lying down and when you are getting up again. Deu 6:8 Tie them to your hands as a reminder, and wear them on your forehead. Deu 6:9 Write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Mr. Watkins,
First you say it's about wagging fingers, now you say it's not? You had a chance to change what you wrote before you commented, but let's forget about your lame excuses, because twisting words is your fortee.
I find it mighy interesting what you just wrote however:
"changing the law to allow "Gay Marriage" is all about approval. They want our nation to give them the stamp of our approval for their behavior. It is not about marriage. Marriage is simply a means to get the stamp. Next comes prohibiting reading Scripture in public that speaks ill of "men lying with men."
NOW YOU'RE SAYING SOMETHING!
Too bad you'll probably never see it, but you're actually GETTING MY POINT.
I'm so proud of you!!! It almost brought a tear to my eye!
armoredfortress,
Thank you for commenting. I agree with you wholeheartedly. The only problem I see in this regard is that we still have some people in the Church who in their hearts don't believe in evangelism.
I mean they SAY they believe in it because the Bible teaches it. But in their everyday life, they not only ignore the practice of it, but they attack others who do.
I suppose, without the love of God in their hearts, they really can't do it.
Be Blessed!
Much ado about nothing. I hear a lot of Christians complaining about the persecution, etc. What persecution? Aren't you free to believe what you want? Those of us who do not believe as you do need to be just as free. It seems to me you want it all your way or no way at all. Lighten up already.
On the one hand you say I'm free to believe what I want, and on the other hand you say I want things my own way because of what I believe.
Then you tell me to 'lighten up' to make me express my beliefs the way YOU want? How dumb is that?
People's freedom of choice is all I've been talking about and getting much grief for here. So what's REALLY going on Mr. O'Leary?
I agree with O'Leary, that I see no persecution of people wanting to believe what they want in the USA. In Iran? Yes, most definitley. But what restrictions have been put upon you to go to your church, pray as you wish and believe what you want to believe? The only one I know of that might even reasonably be considered, in Christian eyes, as an impediment is that open prayers are not allowed in public schools, but that is also a protection because if one religious group gets the right to hold open, sanctioned prayers, then all must be given the same right.
I am also not a believer but I have no reason or desire to stop people from believing in their God. I may question the validity of those beliefs in light of the position of the believer vis-a-vis society in general, but I really can't see the persecution I also hear some evangelical Christians claiming they suffer in the US.
If Christians really want to see persecution, go to Iran or some areas of Africa or Malasia or Burma (Myanmar) and then you'll know what persecution for holding a "strange" belief is all about.
Thank you Ivan for commenting.
I believe you're absolutely right: we as Believers don't suffer the REAL persecution as you've given examples of. And you seem to have gotten my original point regarding the fact that while Christians have the right to voice their opinions like anybody else, we don't have the right to impose our beliefs on others in this secular society - especially by legislating morality.
The contention from others that you see here in this comment section is in response to my statements regarding how unbelievers have autonomous legal rights in this free democratic socieity of America and, the only place we as Christians can totally govern according to God's laws are solely within the physical property boundaries of our churches.
Now, the notion of a State-Run Church is remote, especially considering the rights guaranteed by the 1st Amendment. But I used that title to spur this discussion and to help the Church understand this one point: if we in the Church impose our morality on unbelievers on their turf (secular society), then we open that same door for certain unbelievers to impose their immorality on us and to restrict our autonomy within our churches.
And regarding that persecution you mentioned: the persecution that Christians CLAIM they are under is because of the restrictions that you mentioned: removal of prayers from public school (which is why I said the Church should've been operating their own private Christian schools on a wide scale a long time ago). Another similar restriction would be the removal of the 10 commandments from public courthouses and such.
There used to be a time where the Christian viewpoint was dominant in public school, and Christians now feel they are being persecuted because from their point of view, they've been stripped of that right - WHEN IN FACT, that was never the Christian's right in the first place (to dominate the public with our belief system through the law in a free democratic society). Like you basically said Ivan, if you give that right of prayer in public schools to one religious group, you have to give it to all of them.
Certain ones in the Church hate the idea of unbelievers being free moral agents who can live the homosexual lifestyle if they so choose, and they wish to control people who choose to live and believe differently than they do through the law.
And they hate even more that someone from within the Church like myself is telling them that they are out of order for condemning unbelievers and attempting to legislate morality against them rather than being about the business of loving people who happen to be different than they are, and to seek their salvation the way God told us to.
I hope this helps. Thank you again for your comment.
I can certainly see where you are going with this. But isn't that what is already happening. As Christians we need to stand up for God, not quietly bow out and let society continue to spiral downward. By taking a stand, such as against gay marriage, we've said that as the "body of Christ" we are not going to support gay marriage. It may be a double-edged sword so to speak, but had the law been passed, then churches might have been forced to perform same-sex marriages. I'm sure the ACLU and other organizations would love to take a bite out of a church unwilling to perform the ceremony.
Thank you for your comment. Yes, I agree that the Church needs to stand against Gay marriage, but only the way God wants us to. In addition to voting against it at the polls, churches (I'm talking about the real Christian churches) need to make sure their bi-laws reflect that policy as well.
See, that's part of the BORDER between secular society and our individual autonomous churches that I've been talking about. If our church bi-laws don't reflect that the government of our churches are patterned after all the commands of the Bible, then that portion of our border is wide open, and the immorality of the unbelievers is sure to encroach on our autonomy.
You've made an excellent point Impowelljr -
If we focused less on what the world is doing and trying to force our morality on them through legislation, and more on what Christ told us to do in the way of protecting our own borders and seeking the salvation of lost souls - the Church would be much better off.
Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly; blessed is he that keepth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. Amen!
According to the Word of God, it's EASY for anybody who believes to be blessed. Thank you for your comment Doctor!
Hmmm, some strong belief systems fighting amongst themselves, even shouting at each other in capitol letters no less. All this knowledge that we are blessed with, and this is the best we can come up with? Wouldn't it be better if we could all somehow move in same direction, or at the very least a similar one? Find answers and solutions that will work according to God's plan for us. It is not about outsmarting johnq public, it is about following God's law to the letter. God will deal with non-believers and those who go against his laws like women laying with women and men laying with men. We cannot control the government and it is not our job to do so, lets not lose focus of what is really important, doing things the way God wants them done.
I must admit however I had to laugh out loud when thefount says to nobody, "It's so hard to address somebody as No Body." Laughter is good for the soul just as tears soften our hearts to ours as well as others plight in life. I realize the importance of all that has been expressed regarding the church and the fear of the state stepping in and dictating what is and is not allowed. What needs to be remembered here is the government may control when it comes to man's law, however they cannot control our belief systems and what we know in our hearts to be God's law, the law we must follow.
We are not mindless robots, we control what we believe, and act accordingly. The what if's will get you every time it is like, if you pray why worry, if you worry why pray, worrying is a sin and shows a lack of faith on our part. Prayer being taken out of the schools was a low blow, however I tell my grandson who is school, before you eat bow your head, and thank God for this food. He doesn't have to say it verbally, he can say it in his mind and God will hear him every time. Where there is a will, there is a way, they can take prayer out of the schools, however they cannot take it out of our hearts and minds. I am not as well versed on the bible as all of you, I still have some work to do in that area, therefore I hope I have not offended anyone for it was not my intention. Thanks for listening. lfschrawyer
Dear Ifschrawyer,
While it's true, all of us will not agree on every single point, if we are truly concerned about one another, there's no reason for us to fall ALL the way out of fellowship.
I find your comments refreshing and encouraging as well. And I am happy to see somebody who believes in uniting people in love God's way who happen to have different points of view.
HOOWANTSTONO Level 3 Commenter 2 years ago
Hi there
Well the State might run the " Church" but it doesn't run the real Church, true believers in Jesus Christ should not even be affected by it, it is the beginning of a "time and testing of the saints"......Christ is coming though and that's what we look to.even though things are going to get worse.
Praise Jesus